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2013 Speed Triple Hot Start/Idle Issues

13K views 57 replies 11 participants last post by  Robert marples 
#1 ·
Hey all, I'm crossposting this from my post on Triumphrat.

I recently picked up a 2013 Speed Triple with only 14 miles on it! It's a beast, and maybe the issues I'm having are only due to being in the break-in period, but I've sort of lost my faith in it since it died 3 times on my during my last ride, requiring a bump-start for 2 of those three to get me home. This thread is going to serve as my record of solutions and symptoms.

The situation: Going for a nice hour-long break-in ride to get some miles on it. Varying throttle input and RPM between 4-7.5k and using lots of engine braking. The oil and filter were changed before I picked it up from the dealer for the summer(allegedly), and the oil looked clean and was at the correct level. New battery was also installed by the dealer, Yuasa YTX14-BS 200CCA. Temp gauge went up to 6 bars and stayed there the whole time. This was my second ride after bringing it home, and the ride home and first ride went perfectly with no issues. Fired up fine for the second ride.

First Issue: Pulled over to a side street on country roads to check directions. Let the bike idle for maybe 15 seconds before turning off(with the key, not the kill-switch). After confirming directions, I turned the key and let the fuel pump prime as usual, press the starter, and all of a sudden it was turning over as if the battery was weak. Chug-Chug-Chug-rewwww. It would automatically quit cranking no matter how long I held the starter. I wasn't sure what to do at that point, thought maybe heat was the issue, but figured I could bump-start it from the hill further up the street. Flash-forward to me getting it pretty much up the hill: I give the starter one more go before bump-starting, and it fires right up like nothing happened! Go figure. Start my ride home.

Second Issue: Same ride as first issue. Pulled up to stoplight getting close to home, bike's idle drops to around 1000 or a little less(less than it should be), and then quits. I was in 1st with the clutch pulled in at a stop when this happened. Try to restart it quick before the light changes and it cranks over as it should, but doesn't fire. At all. Just keeps cranking. So I push it over to the sidewalk to wait for it to cool down. After waiting about 10 minutes, still won't fire with the starter. Push it over to a neighborhood nearby with a hill, manage to bump start it and continue my ride home.

At this point, I know something is up, so I keep the throttle cracked at all times from now on. I decided to experiment a bit and it still died anytime I let the throttle close completely. At this point, I was low on fuel with only 2 bars left an the fuel light on, so maybe tank vaccuum was the issue? I still need to check if the lines are clogged, but I can't imagine they would be since it's basically brand new?

Stopped to get gas and it wouldn't start up after filling up either, had to bump start it again. The as soon as I let off the throttle after getting into my driveway, it dies just like it did before.

After searching and reading as many relevant threads as I can on Hot Start and Idle issues, I decided I'm going to focus on the battery right now, as it seems to be the cheapest possible battery that the dealer could've put in, though it seems to be 50/50 between Yuasa and Shorai for what forum-posters prefer. That said, this particular battery is only 200CCA, which seems to be less common than the 240CCA model.

The battery tested fine at the local O'Reilly Auto, but I'm going to test it myself with a multimeter and post the results here. If it checks out fine, my next stop will be investigating the Idle Stepper Motor and then the TPS. I'll also being changing the oil since I'm sure it's full of crap from break-in already.

Just went out to check the mileage and figured I'd try to start it. No dice, didn't really sound even close to starting. I think this battery may just be toast from all the cranking I had to do. Will report back after charging it.

Mileage as of this post: 122

Thanks for your time. Hopefully I can get this figured out sooner rather than later, as I really like the 100 miles I put on it before these issues popped up.

One other question: Are there any Service Bulletins I should be aware of? I keep reading about R/R issues(though mainly on earlier model years), do I need to get mine checked out? Just wondering how many issues Triumph managed to iron out by 2013 on this motor/chassis.
 
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#2 ·
Sounds like a toasted sprag clutch to me. Common problem on this bike if it's been attempted to start on a weak battery at any time in its life. This is a mechanical problem, not an electrical problem.

But that's just a guess.
 
#5 ·
I dealt with clutch-in stalls for 2 years until I finally dropped it off to the dealer. My issue was the stepper motor. I would reset the TPS when it acted up, rode about 100 miles, then it would fail again. Dealer tried telling me it was the tune at first, but when I went to pick it up and rode it around the parking lot it had the same issue with the clutch-in stall. My money is on the stepper motor combined with a tired battery. I hope you get it solved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#6 ·
This thing has spent it's entire life just sitting, that's really not good for a lot of things. Is the selling dealer offering any kind of support or warranty? Was it ever titled before? Was it stored indoors in a climate controlled environment? I hope so, otherwise it's going to have a lot of water in the tank, in the crankcase (although the oil change should have taken care of that) and in the brake fluid. If it's been outside the tires are ready to be replaced, they may need to be replaced no matter what. They obviously put in an under size battery, that might be some of the hot start problems. You've run less than a full tank through it so could still have water in the tank. I doubt the sprag has failed with such low miles. The idle control valve could well be sticky. I was able to get a little oil into mine which solved my idle problems. You could also have some corroded electrical connections. You could also have injector problems as they could well have varnish deposits from dried up gas.
 
#7 ·
The dealer isn't a Triumph dealer anymore, this was the last of their old stock, so no warranty. I haven't bugged the dealer about it yet since they aren't technically a Triumph dealer anymore, and I suspected it was just the battery. It was stored indoors the whole time, and I'd believe it. The tires look fine, no visible issues or dry-rot. I guess it could be water in the tank, since it only happened once I had burned through most of the(original, I assume) tank of gas. We'll find out tomorrow once I've charged the battery overnight tonight. It was indeed low on charge, though only slightly @ 12.51 volts.

If it fires up tomorrow with the charged battery, I'll let it do the 12 minute tune, as it didn't have any issues on cold-starts the whole two times I've started it. I'm also going to record the battery voltages with key-off, key-on, cranking, running at idle, and revving to 2-3k and see what I see. May be a charging issue combined with bad gas or Idle Stepper Motor.

Thanks for your input, all, I'll keep this thread updated as I troubleshoot.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Alright, so here's where we're at with the battery:
Resting voltage(key off) - 13.13 Volts
Resting voltage(key on, lights on, after fuel pump primed) - 12.35 Volts - Seems low, I'm starting to think it's the battery
While cranking - 11.35 Volts at the lowest
After cranking - went right back up to 12.35 Volts consistently

Here's a video of trying to start it:
https://i.imgur.com/OtEK0Ix.mp4

As far as cranking speed - it sounded like about 4-5 turns/cranks per second once it was rolling. Didn't fire up once, not even a hint of firing up, even though it was cranking consistently with enough speed to start. I even hooked up to my GFs car and it didn't change the sound of the starter, though the fuel pump and dash seemed a tad quicker to prime/sweep. I'm leaning towards fuel or spark being the issue now.

I'm starting to think that excess water in the tank was the issue, as I was having zero issues right up until I decided to turn the bike off when the fuel level was around 3 bars. It ran fine with the throttle open, but wouldn't idle. Water in the fuel would make sense then, right? Since the throttle being cracked keeps the inertia up and its at least getting some fuel with the water? How am I going to clear the fuel system between the fuel line and injectors if they're full of water? Just keep cranking away?

Side-note: The fuel level gauge on the dash indicates zero bars of fuel, yet I have a tank that's full up to the filler neck. Is that normal?
 
#10 ·
Quick update: I decided screw it, I'm gonna just go bump-start the thing and take it for a ride. Well, no bumpstart. I can smell fuel in the exhaust when I crank it with the starter, so now I'm moving towards a no-spark situation. Either way, I'm gonna drain the gas tank and as much of the fuel line as I can and start fresh.
 
#11 ·
Update: Took off the airbox and checked plugs, coils, all connectors, the ground behind the coolant tank. Everything looks brand spanking new, as it should at 122 miles. The spark plugs were clean and wet with gas, though it smelled sweeter than I think it normally does. I'm going to go ahead with the drain of the fuel system, fill up with fresh gas and some HEET(in case of any residual water in the system.) If that doesn't do it, I'm tempted to just bring it to a dealer and let them figure it out.

How do I check for spark on these engines? Seems tough to pull the coils and plugs out since the airbox and battery sit right on top of them.
 
#12 ·
Pulling the plugs is a bitch, but it can be done. Give the coils a firm tug to get them off (giggity) and be sure to have a telescopic magnet handy to help get the plugs out of the wells once loose. I also use a flexible/bendable socket extension for the plug on the far left (when looking at bike from rear). It’s in a tight spot for a normal extension.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#15 ·
Sorry I haven't updated this thread, been more active on Triumphrat.net forum. I ordered a cable from Lonelec, just waiting on it to come in. Hopefully it doesn't get tied up in Customs too long, though I'm not holding my breath..

I'm beginning to think this is all just due to water in the gas, or bad gas in general. None of the issues showed up until I got to 2-3 bars of fuel left in the tank, and I assume it's the original tank of gas from freaking 2012-2013. I haven't drained the tank yet, but will once that cable comes in and I can start checking things. Will update when I can.
 
#16 ·
Latest update:
Finally got the brush plate in. Got everything put back together, double-checked all connections. Went to start, and it sounds just like it did in my video posted earlier the thread. Battery voltage was okay, 12.3V after fuel pump primed and the ISC settled, 12.67V with key off. I'm baffled. I will see if the local powersports dealer will let me test it with a known good battery, but I'm getting plans in place to get this thing moved to the nearest Triumph dealer(2 hours).

One thing to note: I said **** it, I know I'm not supposed to touch the throttle when starting, but I tried it with WOT and it started to sound like it should when cranking. I went and watched video after video of Speed Triples starting and they all crank a ton faster than mine does, but when I hold the throttle wide open, it sounds like it should. In fact, it almost sounds like it might start. I tried starting fluid as well, to no avail. Exhaust smells like fuel, so I know it's getting fuel.

I'm going to see if the nearby dealer will help me out with a battery test/known good battery, otherwise it's off to the Triumph dealer.
 
#17 ·
Checked for spark, all three plugs had good spark. Tried starting fluid again, I'm getting smoke coming back out of the intake, so that makes me think it's burning, but the ****ing thing still won't fire up. Beginning to think it's lost compression. What's an engine rebuild going to cost me, do you reckon?


For what it's worth, I did ride somewhat aggressively, but I never took it to redline, and never WOT in the hundred miles that I put on it. Are these things really this fragile?
 
#18 ·
Are these things really this fragile?
No. I drag raced mine for four or five years and it never hiccuped.

Once you figure it out I bet it'll be something so simple you'll slap your forehead so hard it'll leave an imprint.

7 years old and only 14 miles? I'd be looking at vacuum lines being deteriorated.
 
#19 ·
All the lines, vacuum or otherwise, look brand new. In fact, everything looks brand new. Could watery/old/crappy fuel have messed up the injectors? Maybe they're clogged, though I'm not sure what would cause that, the tank was spotless on the inside. Either way, I'm done working on this thing, I'll let the dealer figure it out. I'll be sure to report back on what it was if they figure it out.
 
#21 ·
I finally received my cable from Lonelec. The only fault codes present were the MAP and Ambient Temp sensors, which have to be unplugged when checking spark and Coil #1 open circuit(I accidentally left one unplugged when checking for spark.) After clearing the codes and trying to start again, no new codes pop up. TPS voltage reads .68, which I'm not sure is what it's supposed to be? I went ahead and did the adjust procedure and both the TPS and ISC were reading slightly higher than they should, around .02V higher, but that's within the margin of error, so shouldn't be an issue, I would think. Lack of compression is looking more likely to me. My compression testing kit is in the same town as the dealer, so I'm just going to let them deal with that.
 
#24 ·
I had the injectors tested at the local powersports dealer, they tested good. Kind of a bummer, that would've been an easy fix.

My compression tester fitting wouldn't thread nicely into the cylinder, and none of the auto parts stores around here offer loaner kits that have M10 fittings, so I can't really try a different fitting without buying a whole additional set...plus one of the "transition piece" clips somehow crossthreaded halfway through tightening back onto the throttle bodies, so I ordered replacements to be here next week. I just can't win with this thing, man. This has been by far the most excruciating troubleshooting process I've ever been through. And I own two Jeeps! Some of it is my fault, but I suspect it's going to boil down to lost compression, with only 120 miles on it. Hopefully Triumph will have mercy on me for this, otherwise I think I'm going to get it fixed, ditch it, and get an MT09 or something...
 
#26 ·
Probably about time for an update I suppose. I dropped the bike off at the dealer and gave them the story. They've basically gotten to the same point I got to. Good spark, fuel injectors are working. Cranking slower than it should even though the battery is good. I asked them to do a compression check and they said it came back even, but low. 90 PSI in all cylinders. The service advisor tried to say that it was the slow cranking that was causing it to read low, but I don't think so. Cranking speed shouldn't affect compression that much, if at all, should it?


Regardless, they asked me to give them until Friday to see if they can figure it out, they're going to contact Triumph tech line an see what they have to say. More to come.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Did it have any oil in it when you bought it at the dealer? Was it a 5-year (edit: actually 7 year) old oil?
Is it possible for the engine oil to deteriorate to a point, where it will destroy (scratch) the cylinder valves in 100 miles so it then looses compression?

I am not sure this is possible, but maybe it is.
If you will drain the oil at some point I would insist on taking a sample from it, and send it to a lab, so they can give you some more insight.

Hopefully this will not be the case, good luck and keep us posted!
 
#30 ·
The dealer I bought from said they changed the oil and filter(at my request), and that was the first thing I checked when it was having trouble and I stopped for gas. Oil was at the correct level.

If it is piston rings or valves, this must've been a lemon from the start, which could explain why the dealer I bought it from hadn't sold it sooner, and sold it to me so cheap($6000). Deals like this are almost always too good to be true, that's the risk we take when buying 'used'. It's either a lemon, or someone absolutely beat the shit out of it in the 14 miles before I test-rode and bought it.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Update: The dealer I brought it to is stumped. The current fail-point they have is that the injectors are not firing. The tech thinks it's due to the bike cranking over slowly, slower than it should be. I remember reading somewhere that the injectors won't fire if the bike is cranking slow enough, can anyone confirm that is true?

I asked them if the injectors had good spray on the bench, but it sounds like they don't actually test the spray on their bench, just check for 'clicks'. The tech apparently took them apart and made sure they were clean, but I asked them to price out new injectors for me just in case they are the issue.

Fuel pressure is good.
Battery is good.

Also asked them to check current/resistance in the starter cables to make sure they aren't the issue causing it to crank slowly. They said with the starter out of the bike it turns as fast as it should, but once in the bike it cranks slow. So that leads me to believe it's current/resistance, or else something mechanical in the bike binding up, which is obviously much harder to diagnose.

I'm at a loss here, and so are they. Any other ideas on what they can check? Not sure what to do at this point, I doubt I'll be able to get any reasonable amount of money trying to sell a non-starting bike with 120 miles on it...

Triumph themselves have been zero help and have taken the "If it's been sitting that many years it could be anything" stance. No other support, which is disappointing. But I guess what are they supposed to do?
 
#32 ·
Anyone have any ideas? At present, the dealer still has the bike and is waiting for a used one to come in so they can try a different starter motor. That's their only plan right now, tech thinks it won't start because it's cranking slow.



Even if the starter motor is bad, how would that explain the behavior of the bike before it quit running altogether?


I'm losing sleep over this with all the stress it's causing. Considering just taking the $4500 loss and trading it in non-running for something that isn't Triumph.
 
#34 ·
Well, I ended up sending it to a different dealer since the first one was stumped and didn't really have a plan. The second dealer has now diagnosed it as low compression due to piston rings. They said they got it to run briefly after using something called "Ring-Free", but that it ran rough and quit again shortly after. They're calling Triumph to see what they're thinking, but I'm basically bracing for having to have new rings and pistons put in. Anyone know what that might cost off the top of their head? I'd expect $1500-$2000, hopefully..
 
#35 ·
This has happened before. Before you get excited about them pulling the bike apart, try this:

Get a can of SeaFoam from your local auto parts store. Pull the plugs and pour a couple tablespoons of it down each plug hole. Let it sit for about 20 minutes, then crank the engine over with the plugs out for a minute or so. Then put it back together and fire it up. It'll smoke like a son of a bitch for about 10 minutes, but might solve your problem for the price of a can of SeaFoam. I don't know what "Ring-Free" is, but SeaFoam is worth a try.

If it doesn't work, it might actually be cheaper to source a used engine out of a wrecked bike.
 
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