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Good to hear Duff! You’re probably aware, but you can disable the O2 sensor in TuneECU. I only mention it incase the problem rears it’s head again.


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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Good to hear Duff! You’re probably aware, but you can disable the O2 sensor in TuneECU. I only mention it incase the problem rears it’s head again.


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Holy Christ I'm about to burn this bike down

The problem has returned

So, bit the bullet and grabbed a new lonelec cable, android tablet and the paid version of tuneecu (I am a tight ass, but I couldn't get the old version of the computer program to work reliably) and now the tps will not go below .8 or so volts .

I took the tps off and adjusted it until I saw .6v, but whenever I put it back on the throttle body I run out of adjustment. I am not sure how I did this!!

I did disable the O2 sensor in the map, so that will hopefully get rid of the weird O2 sensor reading.

I am going to put this fucking thing back together and do a live data log (something I could never do with a laptop) and hopefully catch this thing in the act.

I am too deep into this bike to give up now lol
 

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Keep us posted. This problem has baffled folks for some time.


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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Alright.

update time

took the bike apart again, and redid the TPS/ISCV adjustment (whats the definition of insanity?)
adjusted to .6v and .75v respectively, and then swapped over to the sensor view page.

wouldnt you know the TPS I just set was reading 3.9% throttle input and was reading somewhere around .7v

So, instead of doing the relearn procedure I simply adjusted the TPS until it read .6v (this is a mistake I think, don't do this if you're reading this) and the idle problem was solved, kinda. Ran the bike around town and found that my new idle was somewhere around 2300 rpm, and there was some really strange engagement of the throttle, like at 2500 rpm there was a serious stumble but it worked well above that rpm.

get back to the garage, shut it off, restart and its now idling at 13-1500rpm. play with the throttle and there was a point in the rpm range around the 2500rpm mark that was like it was swapping between what it thought its idle should be and what the throttle input was saying.

Take the bike apart again, TPS relearn is now saying Im at .457v. adjust back to .6v, ISCV climbs to where it should be. put the bike back together hastily, and I think this is important, I forgot to connect the hose that goes from the middle throttle body down to...somewhere, not the one that goes to the MAP sensor, but the other port.

bike idles great, throttle response is where is should be, still an oddball stumble around 2300 rpm but the bike felt much better.

took apart, reconnected the hose, and wouldnt you know the problem came back in full force.

attached is a link to a video of the TuneECU sensors page, after the TPS magically adjusted itself to .7v after completion of this job


I am kinda at a loss as to how and why the TPS voltage keeps moving around, and I dont think its solely the ISCV adjusting itself all over gods green earth.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Alright, got the bike apart, again, and checked all the lines, made sure everything was tip top, swapped in the spare throttle body from my other engine (Had to reuse the new TPS and the second ISCV stepper)

The thing that I saw when I reassembled the bike is that no matter what I did to the actual TPS, the ISCV, throttle cables, hoses etc, was that at a completely closed throttle TuneECU was seeing a minute throttle engagement of around 1.6% throttle open. Start the bike up, and it does what the video above shows. target RPM is ~1300, but actual RPM is hovering around 1000. Today it was slightly higher but you could tell it was lugging a little bit, and frequently dropped below 1000.

I did what I didn't want to do, and reset the adaptives. Immediately, Throttle Open showed 0.0, and set idle and actual Idle were identical with the ISCV tracking the target steps....

bike rides great, I'm sure this problem will come back but my question for the hive mind is

What causes the adaptives? How are they collected? How does the ISCV determine how many steps to move to when the ignition is turned on? Is this a tuneable value?

from my understanding of this problem the most likely culprit in this case is the ISCV failing. I must have just had two bad ones.
 

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I can’t answer your question but I can tell you that every time mine acted up, a reset of the adaptives always worked as a temporary fix for me. You are correct in assuming it will rear its ugly head again. I jumped on my bike this weekend and the problem arose again after I had it at the dealer two years ago. I reset the adaptive and everything worked fine. It sucks though, I’m not comfortable riding it any distance.


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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
I can’t answer your question but I can tell you that every time mine acted up, a reset of the adaptives always worked as a temporary fix for me. You are correct in assuming it will rear its ugly head again. I jumped on my bike this weekend and the problem arose again after I had it at the dealer two years ago. I reset the adaptive and everything worked fine. It sucks though, I’m not comfortable riding it any distance.


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So, I too was a little sus about resetting the adaptives but I had a thought
The Map im running is the TOD, which doesnt use the O2 sensor, the adaptives can only really be captured by a show and response type sensor feed, I.E. the map sensor, the fuel tables, and TPS "feed" the motor, the O2 sensor. records how well they did and alters the fuel trim to compensate for values found in the exhaust stream.

So, by disabling the O2 sensor (something I never thought would make that big a difference) I effectively removed the biked ability to do its own fuel trimming.

I dont know if the fuel trimming map effects the idle map that controls the ISCV stepper position but it must do something to it, otherwise we wouldnt find ourselves in this predicament.

I have ridden it around 400 mile now, and every time I swing a leg over and fire it up I cringe expecting the worst but so far it has been good. I've run it through every scenario that usually brings about the idling issue, long rides, short rides, restarts, etc and so far so good.

I haven't stopped riding with my tablet in my backpack though in case I need an emergency adaptives reset but I have scanned it a few times to see if the problem is progressing but everything seems relatively normal.

The BIGGEST PITA was the fact that I would sometimes reset the TPS and the bike would still read that the throttle was partially open. I think that is the root cause of this issue, but I don't know how to investigate the causes because it seems to be a purely software related problem. You set the reference voltage and the ISCV voltage and that should be the new "0"

Im hoping this is the end of the line for me, as I've really started to run out of fucks, and the sentimental value of this bike is running in short supply. If it acts up again I'm going to reset the adaptives and ride it to a dealer and get a different bike.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Why are these bikes such a PITA? My KTM is relatively maintenance free.
I have no idea, for 6 years this bike was maintenance free for me, then all of a sudden it was the biggest fucking headache I've ever dealt with as a mechanic. Like why couldnt it just lunch a valve, or let the smoke out of the starter? something normal? but nooooo its gotta be this super fucking involved fix that has people hacking the idling mechanism. And the fact that me and 2doggs are far from the only ones with this problem isnt great either.
 

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So, I too was a little sus about resetting the adaptives but I had a thought
The Map im running is the TOD, which doesnt use the O2 sensor, the adaptives can only really be captured by a show and response type sensor feed, I.E. the map sensor, the fuel tables, and TPS "feed" the motor, the O2 sensor. records how well they did and alters the fuel trim to compensate for values found in the exhaust stream.

So, by disabling the O2 sensor (something I never thought would make that big a difference) I effectively removed the biked ability to do its own fuel trimming.

I dont know if the fuel trimming map effects the idle map that controls the ISCV stepper position but it must do something to it, otherwise we wouldnt find ourselves in this predicament.

I have ridden it around 400 mile now, and every time I swing a leg over and fire it up I cringe expecting the worst but so far it has been good. I've run it through every scenario that usually brings about the idling issue, long rides, short rides, restarts, etc and so far so good.

I haven't stopped riding with my tablet in my backpack though in case I need an emergency adaptives reset but I have scanned it a few times to see if the problem is progressing but everything seems relatively normal.

The BIGGEST PITA was the fact that I would sometimes reset the TPS and the bike would still read that the throttle was partially open. I think that is the root cause of this issue, but I don't know how to investigate the causes because it seems to be a purely software related problem. You set the reference voltage and the ISCV voltage and that should be the new "0"

Im hoping this is the end of the line for me, as I've really started to run out of fucks, and the sentimental value of this bike is running in short supply. If it acts up again I'm going to reset the adaptives and ride it to a dealer and get a different bike.
I’m going to disable my O2 and give it a test. I feel it’s a good idea to have a couple different test subjects. I’ll report back on how well or how poorly this idea worked.


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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
I’m going to disable my O2 and give it a test. I feel it’s a good idea to have a couple different test subjects. I’ll report back on how well or how poorly this idea worked.


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After you disable the O2 sensor make sure the tps and iscv agree and reset adaptives.
Another note is that my buddy pointed out the voltage being read from the O2 sensor was abnormally high, like I guess anything over 1v is abnormal and I was showing 1.256 or something goofy. Disconnecting the O2 sensor didn’t change the value either which was odd but try that and see what happens
 

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All,

Very interested in this thread as I too am having this problem with my 10 S3. I've had an 09 STR for years with nothing like this at all.

I've only been dealing with this for a couple of weeks, also following a long maintenance period (2 months) with tank-off service. 4500 miles. She ran for about 90 miles smoothly following service and then began having this issue. Primarily an idle and off idle problem dissipating once load is applied. Interestingly, over time, it has begun to intermittently misfire in higher gear under heavier loads. I'm not sure if you have experienced that.

Some of your post confounds theories I've had on the matter. Before your most recent update, I was really thinking that a problem in the ignition system or injectors is at fault (failing solid state component or injector solenoid and or clogged pestle valve). I'm not totally convinced otherwise.

I did throw my run of the mill OBDII scanner on her and noted nothing significant. I did note, however, that the system shifts to CL (closed loop) at idle, indicating that the ECU is reverting to a base map without consideration of active feedback loops (such as map or o2 - very common). This is where your solution of removing o2 from the circuit confounds me.

The fact that this problem occurs on cold engines at idle leads me away from a solid state component failure, but doesn't rule out an ignition problem (such as a false ground on the coilpack before the plug). Our bikes are 10+ years old and while they are low mileage, dry rot could be setting in. The fact that this has consistently occurred following a long maintenance period does point me towards faulty injectors.

I can't explain the adaptive reset functioning for short periods of time along with one or more of these other failures, other than to say that the ECU may temporarily compensate for a fault elsewhere and the fact that it temporarily resolves the issue is pointing us in the wrong direction.........maybe.

Very Respectfully,
Adam
 

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I think the issue we are having is more idle adjustment when coming to a stop. Upon acceleration I have no issues at all. When the idle issue happens I have to massage the throttle to keep it running while stopped.


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All,

I did throw my run of the mill OBDII scanner on her and noted nothing significant. I did note, however, that the system shifts to CL (closed loop) at idle, indicating that the ECU is reverting to a base map without consideration of active feedback loops (such as map or o2 - very common). This is where your solution of removing o2 from the circuit confounds me.


Very Respectfully,
Adam
Closed loop means the ECU is getting feedback from the O2 sensor and making adjustments,
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Forgive me. I reversed the situation in my head while writing the discussion post. Thank you for the correction.
No worries.

for me when I lost my TPS, i found that i had both a issue with my idle, and there was a midpoint RPM (around 3500-4500) where the bike seemed to run really rough and misfire and all sorts, but above that I had no issues.

I have never seen a misfire in a higher engine load configuration. that sounds to me like improper spark timing or low grade fuel that is cooking off before the ignition has a chance to get to it. definitely pick up a cheap android tablet/phone, a cable from lonelec, and a copy of tuneECU to really figure out what you're seeing with your bike as far as TPS position, and all the other goodies
 
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