I'm using the 20100 w/ a Zard map from the PC and a little extra timing. 28.2 deg @9700/100 tapering off to nothing @4100/50. Throttle response is crisp although in the mid rpm range there is some unsteadiness at neutral, cruising throttle.
1050 tuning with Tuneboy and intake velocity
G
I am using a slightly modified version of the 20103 tune - aftermarket exhaust with SAI removed. From the beginning, I have noticed a part throttle tuning issue from 3800-4000 rpm that really screws with around town driveability. It is not an issue at WOT.
Has anyone else noticed this?
It actually got worse after coating and wraping the header. I have been working on this area, and it looks like it may not be a fuel/timing issue. It acts like the 955i Daytona engines (gurgling), and this is a know air velocity issue.
It may be an intake air velocity issue on the 1050 engines as well. I am going to try playing with some custom velocity stacks in different lengths and tapers with a REAL radius on the lip. The stock velocity stack is poorly designed and curved. Eachone has a HUGE taper to the stack making it BIG at the inlet. The throttle body is already 46mm in diameter, using 45.77mm throttle blades. This will flow much more air than the 1050 Triple engine can use. Increasing velocity and getting the length and volume matched to what the engine needs SHOULD help power over a broad range - not just at higher rpm. We'll see.
Has anyone else noticed this?
It actually got worse after coating and wraping the header. I have been working on this area, and it looks like it may not be a fuel/timing issue. It acts like the 955i Daytona engines (gurgling), and this is a know air velocity issue.
It may be an intake air velocity issue on the 1050 engines as well. I am going to try playing with some custom velocity stacks in different lengths and tapers with a REAL radius on the lip. The stock velocity stack is poorly designed and curved. Eachone has a HUGE taper to the stack making it BIG at the inlet. The throttle body is already 46mm in diameter, using 45.77mm throttle blades. This will flow much more air than the 1050 Triple engine can use. Increasing velocity and getting the length and volume matched to what the engine needs SHOULD help power over a broad range - not just at higher rpm. We'll see.
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
G
I ordered a couple of sets of Factory Pro velocity stacks in 45.3mm diameter (no taper) and 60mm length to test with my homemade 46mm ones (with more taper). I am also trying to set up a date for use of a eddy current dyno in order to map part throttle ranges better than by the seat of my pants. It looks like late next week before I can get on this dyno.
I will let you know what I find.
I will let you know what I find.
Devious, have you tested the Mr McDonald tune with modified ignition map? I am still waiting for the Tuneboy (group buy) to arrive but I played with the software. How close and carefully done is the 20102tunedyno.dat for example? Is it thoroghly tested or just some experimental a bit like "beta" and "final" in the software world?
The igniton map looks a bit like it was gobbled together with full throttle pulls only. I mean the part throttle has less advance than full throttle in the 50% t0 78% range.
I am going to make my own map but as a starting point I mean. I have close to zero experience with tuning injected vehicles but plenty with carbs. Tune edit seems pretty clever and I figured it out already.
The igniton map looks a bit like it was gobbled together with full throttle pulls only. I mean the part throttle has less advance than full throttle in the 50% t0 78% range.
I am going to make my own map but as a starting point I mean. I have close to zero experience with tuning injected vehicles but plenty with carbs. Tune edit seems pretty clever and I figured it out already.
G
The 20088 map is Wayne MacDonald's dyno-tuned (39 passes to work it out) map for non-SAI bikes. There is also a 20102Tune_dyno that is the same map, but for SAI equipped bikes.
If you don't have either of these, I can send them to you, OR Catahoulabulldog is setting up the forum to allow downloads very soon. ;D
Both of these tunes are very good for bikes with aftermarket or TORS exhaust. I started with these and have since modified them for what I am running now.
If you don't have either of these, I can send them to you, OR Catahoulabulldog is setting up the forum to allow downloads very soon. ;D
Both of these tunes are very good for bikes with aftermarket or TORS exhaust. I started with these and have since modified them for what I am running now.
I have both maps and I played with TuneEdit to get used to the software. I mean the final ignition adjustment (3deg?) mentioned was done only at the 100% throttle. At ~70% the advance drops and then starts to rise again at lower throttle. I only have to adjust couple of rows to make it look like it should.
I still think a bit more power can be found with a wee bit more advance. Any ideas suggestions guys? Dev?
Overkill is overkill and can blow the engine. Careful experimenting is advisable.
G
I installed a knock sensor on my Speed Triple with active control - it pulls timing when it detects knock in a cylinder, but only in the cylinder effected.
On 93 octane (R+M/2), I was able to add a touch more advance from just above peak torque to just past peak power (8000-9500). This is where the cylinder filling becomes less and less efficient - max volumetric efficiency will ALWAYS be at peak torque.
I started adding in small amounts of advance until it had 1.5 degrees more then the standard 20088_Dyno39 tune at 9500 rpm. It helped hold a touch more torque and add power in this region. I did not get signs of pre-ignition, so more may be wanted. I also added a bit more fuel in this region. But it is very touchy to fuel above 9000 rpm. A touch too much, and you lose .5 hp fairly easy.
But again, my bike is a bit different than others. With the header work and throttle body/adapter clean up, I should be filling the cylinders more than many others. Less cylinder filling may want even more advance above peak torque. But then again, adding advance also makes it harder for the piston to reach TDC and increases pumping losses. Like SO many things, a balance must be found.
Playing with cam timing and velocity stacks, also changes everything at higher rpm.
On 93 octane (R+M/2), I was able to add a touch more advance from just above peak torque to just past peak power (8000-9500). This is where the cylinder filling becomes less and less efficient - max volumetric efficiency will ALWAYS be at peak torque.
I started adding in small amounts of advance until it had 1.5 degrees more then the standard 20088_Dyno39 tune at 9500 rpm. It helped hold a touch more torque and add power in this region. I did not get signs of pre-ignition, so more may be wanted. I also added a bit more fuel in this region. But it is very touchy to fuel above 9000 rpm. A touch too much, and you lose .5 hp fairly easy.
But again, my bike is a bit different than others. With the header work and throttle body/adapter clean up, I should be filling the cylinders more than many others. Less cylinder filling may want even more advance above peak torque. But then again, adding advance also makes it harder for the piston to reach TDC and increases pumping losses. Like SO many things, a balance must be found.
Playing with cam timing and velocity stacks, also changes everything at higher rpm.
Any idea how the 20102Tune_dyno would run with K&N filter, pre-silencer removed and aftermarket cans? Obviously it was made with stock filter and pre-cat (or whatever. I think it has more to do with noise than emissions).
G
It runs pretty good. That is the tune I used before I removed the SAI. I have a tune that is a bit better for the pre-cat removed header - a touch more fuel throughout, with more down low, and on the top end.
It also has the rev limit at 9850, the Prime Pulse is leaner, and the speedo correction at 6.5-7% higher.
It also has the rev limit at 9850, the Prime Pulse is leaner, and the speedo correction at 6.5-7% higher.
Got the key today. Works like a charm. Loaded s slightly modded 20102tunedyno. started the bike and played with tuneboy. Throttle bodies are dead on according to map values, no error codes etc. Played with the graphic datalogger. Looks like it works just fine.
What is that "install logging patch" thing? Seems to be greyed out.
What is that "install logging patch" thing? Seems to be greyed out.
The logging patch allows TuneEdit to log with the TuneBoy datalogger. But you will need to keep a laptop connected to the bike while riding.
Quoted from Wayne Macdonald:
The way this all works is as follows.
Open the tune.
Select "Install logging patch". This zaps address pointers in the program
itself so that all the data we need is in one spot. This allows a single
read command to get all the data we want, this in turn allows the logger to
sample at a much faster rate and you can be sure that all values in a log
record are from the same instant in time.
Download the map to the bike.
Select "Start Logging".
Do your thing.
Select "Stop Logging"
The file has the following info.
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15
1 = N/A
2 = N/A
3 = Current RPM
4 = Index for RPM, this shows the column in the map that is currently being
used, 0 is the first column.
5 = Offset for RPM, this shows how far past the RPM index it is towards the
next column, the range is 0 to 255.
Index of 5 with offset of 128 would mean it is half way between the 6th
and seventh column in the map.
6 = Throttle percentage
7 = Index for TPS into the map, same usage as the RPM index
8 = Offset for TPS
9 = O2 sensor voltage. This will read from 0.000 to 5.000 volts.
if you have a wide band sensor connected to the O2 input then this will
be your wide band O2 value.
if you set the output from the wideband to 0 = 10/1 and 5v = 20/1 then
the following can be done in excel
(voltage * 2) + 10 = Air/Fuel ratio.
10 = This is the target A/F ratio from the A/F tables in the ECU, this has
nothing to do with the O2 sensor.
11 = N/A
12 = Injector pulse width, 2000 is 2.000 milliseconds
13 = Ignition advance, 159 = 15.9 degrees.
14 = N/A
15 = N/A
When the logger is running the two A/F values shown on screen are.
Top one is from the tables in the ECU.
Bottom one is calculated from the O2 voltage using a file called O2_cal.txt
that must be in the same directory as the TuneEdit program.
Here are two examples of O2_cal.txt files
This first one will convert the voltage values from the narrow band sensor
to A/F values, this will noe be accurate but it is better than nothing. Note
that the values range from high A/F to low A/F, this corresponds to the D on
the first line.
***********************************************************************
* First line should not be changed unless you know what you are doing *
***********************************************************************
D,5100,1024
**********************
* Each line is mv,af *
**********************
25.0,17.50
55.0,15.14
450.0,14.50
800.0,13.70
1100.0,10.00
***************
* End of file *
***************
This second example of an O2_Cal.txt file is for a wide band that is set for
0v = 10/1 and 5v = 20/1
***********************************************************************
* First line should not be changed unless you know what you are doing *
***********************************************************************
A,5020,1024
**********************
* Each line is mv,af *
**********************
0000,10.00
5000,20.00
***************
* End of file *
***************
Quoted from Wayne Macdonald:
The way this all works is as follows.
Open the tune.
Select "Install logging patch". This zaps address pointers in the program
itself so that all the data we need is in one spot. This allows a single
read command to get all the data we want, this in turn allows the logger to
sample at a much faster rate and you can be sure that all values in a log
record are from the same instant in time.
Download the map to the bike.
Select "Start Logging".
Do your thing.
Select "Stop Logging"
The file has the following info.
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15
1 = N/A
2 = N/A
3 = Current RPM
4 = Index for RPM, this shows the column in the map that is currently being
used, 0 is the first column.
5 = Offset for RPM, this shows how far past the RPM index it is towards the
next column, the range is 0 to 255.
Index of 5 with offset of 128 would mean it is half way between the 6th
and seventh column in the map.
6 = Throttle percentage
7 = Index for TPS into the map, same usage as the RPM index
8 = Offset for TPS
9 = O2 sensor voltage. This will read from 0.000 to 5.000 volts.
if you have a wide band sensor connected to the O2 input then this will
be your wide band O2 value.
if you set the output from the wideband to 0 = 10/1 and 5v = 20/1 then
the following can be done in excel
(voltage * 2) + 10 = Air/Fuel ratio.
10 = This is the target A/F ratio from the A/F tables in the ECU, this has
nothing to do with the O2 sensor.
11 = N/A
12 = Injector pulse width, 2000 is 2.000 milliseconds
13 = Ignition advance, 159 = 15.9 degrees.
14 = N/A
15 = N/A
When the logger is running the two A/F values shown on screen are.
Top one is from the tables in the ECU.
Bottom one is calculated from the O2 voltage using a file called O2_cal.txt
that must be in the same directory as the TuneEdit program.
Here are two examples of O2_cal.txt files
This first one will convert the voltage values from the narrow band sensor
to A/F values, this will noe be accurate but it is better than nothing. Note
that the values range from high A/F to low A/F, this corresponds to the D on
the first line.
***********************************************************************
* First line should not be changed unless you know what you are doing *
***********************************************************************
D,5100,1024
**********************
* Each line is mv,af *
**********************
25.0,17.50
55.0,15.14
450.0,14.50
800.0,13.70
1100.0,10.00
***************
* End of file *
***************
This second example of an O2_Cal.txt file is for a wide band that is set for
0v = 10/1 and 5v = 20/1
***********************************************************************
* First line should not be changed unless you know what you are doing *
***********************************************************************
A,5020,1024
**********************
* Each line is mv,af *
**********************
0000,10.00
5000,20.00
***************
* End of file *
***************
The "install logging patch " is greyed out on the menu and cannot be selected. Do I have to install something else to get it working, copy files etc?. The graphical datalogger program works like it should. It records and I can view the log, zoom etc.
The later tunes log without the need for the "patch".
Yep, Wayne Macdonald is always improving TuneEdit. You have to love his style. 
ow: ow: ow:
Now, if I could only get him interested in cracking the ECU for my Lotus.
ow: ow: ow:Now, if I could only get him interested in cracking the ECU for my Lotus.
You should know the simple answer to that one Dev............get him a Lotus......Devious2xs said:Now, if I could only get him interested in cracking the ECU for my Lotus.
Last year he told me he had cracked the Suburu Evo/WRX ECU and the one for the late Harleys. I need to ask him about the Lotus ECU.
I could manage to get him an ECU, but I'm not sending my car to OZ! I have a Motec system I can use, but would prefer not.
I could manage to get him an ECU, but I'm not sending my car to OZ! I have a Motec system I can use, but would prefer not.
The spring is here and I rode the bike for the first time in four months. Seems to run ok. seat of the pants dyno tells there is nothing seriously wrong with the 20102Tune_dyno. I slightly modified the ignition map though. Hard to tell about the power but after the winter anything fells mighty fast. The midrange at least is propably stronger. Must do some datalogging soon and finetune to fit header mod and k&N and local gas (nothing wrong other than the price ).
).1 - 20 of 20 Posts
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