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How much is enough -power/torque?

3790 Views 22 Replies 7 Participants Last post by  kuhlka
This is a repost after the crash -

For you and your riding style, how much power and torque is enough? 80 ft-lb, 83, 85? 130 hp, 135, 140, more? What max rpm would you want to turn.

For the Speed Triple, is moving the powerband higher and possibly losing low end torque to get more power higher in the rpm range a good idea for your uses? How many of you have or want steeper gearing with a sprocket change?

If you could have more torque and power with the stock engine and bolt-on parts, would you want it?

How much is enough?
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I am not into revving the nuts out off the engine. My favourite riding style is carving the back roads using the mid range and not shifting much at all. My previous bike was a souped up Bandit 1200. Never dynoed but it had more top end power (116,6 rwhp for my triumph). I would say a Speed Triple with a free breathing 1200-1300cc engine with 130Nm and 130-140hp would be sweet.

I guess I am getting old at 36 years but the triple feels almost strong enough for me. I am mechanically inclined but cheap as hell. I would not buy any 1000€ part to get 3 more hp. Any free or cheap mods are welcome. Bandit was a perfect example. Homemade 4-2-1 system, airbox mods, gsxr cams, skimmed and home ported head etc. Did not cost anything but kicked pretty well and never missed a beat.
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Dunno, a turbo sounds nice, but for the price I could buy half of a new bike. I'll probably end up going that route, but for now I'll have to stick to cheap and simple mods like you've been doing, Devious. Maybe focus more on replacing bolts with titanium and lose some weight myself. Then, when I get done with grad school or Autumn decides to gift me a turbo for a birthday or xmas, I'll go that direction.
I think there is a good bit of power yet untapped with cheap and simple mods. I was planning on doing a bit more dyno testing this week to find out, but some unforseen events are raining on that parade.

I am planning on building a custom header, doing some head work, and coating and balancing the internal parts this winter. Lots of work, but still cheap when done yourself. I am seriously looking at custom cams as well.

Titanium is only 40% lighter than steel. For the price, I would only bother with Ti bolts on rotating parts - brake disks, sprockets, clutch/flywheel, etc. If you go with a 520 chain and light sprockets, Ti parts might help give a nice increase in throttle response and acceleration.

I have a friend that has a huge collection of turbo parts - he has owned a turbo shop for many years. He swears that he can build me a custom matched turbo for $350. That would leave piping, intercooling, custom header, and fuel system mods that all can be done for less than the price of magnesium wheels. Something for me to think about. 215-225 rwhp should be possible. I have several air-air and air-water intercooler cores around the shop, Hmmmm.....

Then there is Racecomp working on a turbo kit for the 1050 engines.

Just how much IS enough.
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That does it. I was planning on getting a Zard full system but now that Devious is going to build a custom header over the winter I will buy one of his and get the Trident slip-ons with half pipe. The carbon fiber, oem look has taken me over. That plus the custom velocity stacks, custom cold air intake, SAI removal, and custom tuneboy map will keep me hppy for years to come, thank you very much. da man.
Fred - The stock header is so poorly designed for additional power (over 130 SAE hp) that I feel that a custom one is my best answer. If it works out well, I would be willing to build a few systems, but I don't know about going into production.

I posted this before the crash (BC?) so I will add it again:

1050 potential?
One of the best ways to determine the efficiency of the engine is to determine the torque to displacement. A good engine will produce 90 ft-lb per liter and I have seen as much as 93/L. A 1050cc engine can easily produce 94.5 ft-lb. with a 12% drivetrain loss, this gives 83.16 ft-lb at peak.

Dynojet numbers are highly optomistic, but I have already produced 82.44 ft-lb on my 05S3, so 83 ft-lb is more than possible. If the peak torque and peak power rpm points are kept the same, the engine will produce about 94% of peak torque at peak power rpm. This would make around 78 ft-lb at peak power rpm.

HP = TQ x RPM / 5252 and TQ = HP x 5252 / RPM. So 78 ft-lb at 9000 rpm gives 133.66 hp. If the powerband is moved 400 rpm higher, 78 ft-lb at 9400 rpm makes 139.6 hp - less any increased friction from rpm.

With custom header, rod work, coatings, head work, compression and cammed to make peak power at 9900 rpm, the 1050 engine should produce over 150 rwhp on a Dynojet. And it would still have a very good torque curve that makes the stock one look puny.

Something to think about.
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I don't know in terms of numbers how much would be enough. Stock is close, but I do love those free and cheap mods. I like to see low and midrange power. Shoot, that's why I bought the triple. I'm happy to see you working on the airbox. I wanted to start fooling around with velocity stacks, but I wouldn't know where to start, and I don't have the means to test and tune. With your cold air intake, are you getting more intake noise? I would like to get more intake growl out of my bike, but the poplular consensus is not to mess with the airbox. I want to thank you for being the guinea pig.

In terms of gearing, I went +2 on the rear sprocket. I like it so much I think I will go +3 when the chain wears out and I switch to a 520 set. But on the down side, of course, is cruising RPMs on the highway are higher. I would like to see a taller sixth gear. It seems that the jump from 5th to 6th is smaller than any of the other gear changes.

In another thread you compared intake cams from the Daytona, 1050, and 955 triples. Would a 955 intake cam bolt into the 1050 engine? Or is a custom grind required? That's another mod I would consider if it didn't destroy the low end power.
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The 955 cams should fit. The Daytona cams might be too much duration, but the 2002 Speed Triple intake cam looks useable. I don't think Triumph engineers did a lot of work on cam timing and profiles - the bean counters may have had more pull by the look of things.

I am not getting any more intake noise with the ducting than stock (by itself), but I am working on custom airbox intake "snorkles" that should be a nice improvement to sound and air flow. The stock air box volume looks to be too small. I am still working on this. It is easy to add a "boost bottle" to alter the volume and MAYBE even get a small power gain over a part of the power band.

Velocity stacks are used to tune the waves in the intake ports. Changing the length and volume (taper and diameter) alters when and how the waves are reflected. I started at stock length and played with different shapes and radius openings - I even bought some billet aluminum ones that were not what I needed, but would work well on a Daytona. I am still working with length and taper, but I have settled on diameter and radius. It is not difficult, just time consuming. The results seem to be worth the work and time. The custom velocity stacks DO make a bit more intake noise than the stock rubber ones.

I like to test. A local shop has very reasonable pricing on dyno time. describes the word devious as "departing from the proper or accepted way" and "departing from the most direct way; circuitous; indirect: a devious course". I could care less about popular consensus, only accurate testing gives any meaningful knowledge. There is little accurate testing on Triumph engines posted on forums. Even my testing should be questioned by others willing to do their own testing and prove or disprove the results.

The problem is that with very few riders doing performance mods to Triumphs, the forums are full of internet engineers that have yet to test anything, but want to question everything. Test for yourself and question your own results and mine. Sometimes you get results that make no sense... that is when you can really learn.

And do not get centered on HP numbers, look at the percentage improvements. Dynos DO lie.

I am not an engine guru. I have know a few, and I am not in their league. I just like to test, learn, and share my results.
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I didn't mean to suggest that you shouldn't experiment with the airbox because everyone else said it isn't a good idea. I merely meant I wasn't going to mess with the airbox until someone else did the experimenting for me. ;D At the moment, I can barely afford to own my Speedy, and I certainly can't afford to mess it up.

There are well known intake mods for other poplular biked, ie: DRZ 400, Z1000, SV650/1000, that involve nothing more than a hacksaw or spare washers. I was hoping to find something similar for the Triple, but it seems Triumph owners are a little more hesitant to mess with something that works so good out of the box. And for that, I thank you for being daring and devious enough to break the mold.

When I bought the bike, I wasn't going to touch it, save for comfort items: seat, handlebar, etc. However, after reading you posts, I feel my inner modder coming out. I think my dremel may see some use this winter! ;)
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This bike seems to respond well to simple mods. After replacing the throttle blade screws, I wouldn't suggest it for the novice. The soft brass throttle blade bar is easy to strip the threads from. But if you don't mind drilling and tapping for larger screws, the flow increase from smaller screw heads and a radius on the leading edge on the blades is well worth the work, and the price is right. Just use green loctite on the screws when installing them. I don't see a need to ever remove them again.
My turbo Hayabusa will stand straight up in fifth gear at 180 mph. That's too much. The bike is NOT fun to ride. It sits in the garage under a cover and hooked to a trickle charger, which is a damn good place for it.
Why make a turbo monster if you cant use it? Is it just a drag bike now?
My only experience with a modern turbo bike is a turbo 'Busa. It was not well designed and had too much power that came on too quickly. A well designed system should provide progressive power that is useable.

To me, the true test of useable power and tuning is taking a bike on the "Tail of the Dragon". It doesn't require loads of power, but good throttle transition is a must. If a turbo made the bike unuseable on the Tail, It would be useless to me. The short wheelbase of the Triple makes this even more important than the 'Busa.

A turbo is easier to fit, but a small screw lysholm unit like the one on the Mazda Millenia may be another option. I need to look at what it would take to mount and drive it a little more closely.
Whilst I’m not familiar with the tail, it sounds like my kind of road. The turbo speedy would relish such a place; the problem I find with the turbo motors is you become a very lazy rider with tall 19/42 gearing. This can catch you out if your not careful because it doesn’t feel fast!!!
The low rpm and continuos power delivery feels so different to the balls out feel of the Daytona motor.
The turbo motor pulls real hard from 3000 rpm in top so that’s pretty much were it stays, that’s one hell of a long gear and a fast one at that. Pure grunt is an awesome feeling.

Very usable torquey power delivery, I’ve never ridden a balls out straight line turbo monster, I think it would get me frustrated riding a bike like that on the road after a while, once the excitement of all that power has become familiar and the novelty has worn off………...
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Racecomp - you are ruining my plans to keep the bike naturally asperated for another year!
Well you can fix it easy mate!!!! Get another Speedy. That way I'll have something to ride the tail with when I come over for holiday :)
OK, time to re-evaluate this topic.

On a Speed Triple, is it worth losing a bit of bottom end torque to get a bit more power, ie. moving the powerband higher, but losing some torque under 3500 rpm?

How much torque and power is too much?
I rarely ever ride lower than 3500 rpm so it'd be no loss to me if the torque peaked at 3,500 or 4,000.
kuhlka said:
I rarely ever ride lower than 3500 rpm so it'd be no loss to me if the torque peaked at 3,500 or 4,000.
Isn’t standard peak torque on your model Speedy 85 nm @ 7500 rpm, what are on about :eek:!!!!! There is 1000 rpm difference between a Speed Triple and a Daytona from the factory.

Daytona motors are in a higher state of tune to start with, it has all the right parts to make a good strong motor, it’s so easy to move the max power, rather than doing all the time consuming little modifications on a cooking motor only to find that you are still way off what you could have if you had started with a Daytona motor.

Used Daytona motors are cheap on flea bay, I’ve seen them sell in the states for $1000 that’s less than a good exhaust system.

Standard factory specification.

Speed Triple 02-04: max torque 85 nm @ 7500 rpm with 108 ps @ 9100 rpm.

Daytona 02-04 max torque 100 nm @ 8500 with 130 ps @ 10200 rpm

1050 motor: It has all the good parts like the Daytona motor apart from cams and exhaust system, change them to Daytona parts and you will have a beast. No expensive one off cam grinds with hrs spent on the dyno sorting it out!!!

If you guys were a bit closer you could have a blast of my Speedtona and I’m sure TRX850 would do the same just to show you what we are on about.

My Speedtona will crack off the throttle wheel stands in 1st 2nd and 3rd at will; I can cruse at 60K @ 2000 rpm in top and crack the throttle the motor pulls clean and very responsively with 17/45 gearing.
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How much is enough? I don't know but I'm happy whif what I have got. ;D ;D ;D
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