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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
All of the modifications you do for performance need to be seen as a system. One part of the engine needs to work with the others, or nothing is gained. And sometimes, you can even go backwards.

This isn't complex, or confusing. An engine is a pump that uses the air and fuel it pulls inside to produce heat. This heat causes the air to expand and move the pump. If you think about it, everything you do needs to help the part in front of it and behind it. If you can improve the way the engine works as a system, you can get the most improvement for the work you do.

Choosing exhaust silencers that are less restrictive than stock will help - up to a point. Then the next item in the system needs to be looked at.

I will use my bike and my work as an example:
I started with TORS and the triumph tune. This was a nice improvement over the stock bike.

I then bought a Trident Half system, it flows more than the TORS, but the bike couldn't make use of the additional flow. So I removed the precatalyst from the header. I also did some minor clean up work to the header, and matched the header to the exhaust ports in the head. I even ground the header flange a bit larger than the exhaust ports on the bottom and the sides to prevent low speed air in the header from re-entering the exhaust port at low rpm and low throttle positions. This can help throttle response in many cases. The result was a very nice improvement in power and response.

The next area that needed work was the intake. I removed the stock throttle body, the rubber adapters that connect it to the intake ports, and the velocity stacks. I noticed that each of these parts needed a bit of clean up work. They had rough edges that intruded into the flow. So I cleaned up these parts. I even added a higher flowing BMC air filter. Again I noticed a nice gain in top end performance.

Now the stock fuel tuning was very lean in the midrange and at higher rpm, so I needed to add more fuel to take advantage of the additional exhaust flow and scavaging (pulling more air and fuel into the cylinder and out through the exhaust by stronger exhaust pulses). I chose TuneBoy (TuneEdit actually) due to its advantages over my experiences with Power Commanders.

I started with a tune developed by Wayne Macdonald at TuneBoy. This tune helped the midrange tremendously by adding much needed fuel. This also improved the top end power. But the tune was not perfect for my bike. I worked with this tune and altered the fuel ,and in some places I altered the spark timing. It worked even better.

I also looked at the temperature of the air entering the engine. If the air is cooler, it is denser. The engine can pull more air into the engine if it is denser. This makes more expansion possible, and more power is produced.

After this, I added adjustable cam gears to allow me to test the effect of a bit more or less overlap on the intake and exhaust cams. I also used velocity stacks that were a different than stock (in several sizes, taper angles, and radious of opening). Together, these allowed me to bump the peak power several hundred rpm. But this took a lot of work for a couple of more hp. In many cases, I actually went backwards until I found a combination that seems to work well with the previous mods. The cost in time and parts (not to mention dyno time) makes these couple of hp considerably more expensive than the each hp gained up to this point.

This is where I am now. Others may be able to do these same mods, or develop others, to come up with an even better combination. But these mods have taken a bike that started with 112 hp on a local dyno, and last made 135 hp and over 82 ft-lb of torque. This is a nice 20% improvement in power and torque throughout the powerband.

I have looked at the heads. The stock casting and machine work can be improved. So I am doing some clean up work in the ports that should add a bit more flow without increasing the port volume noticeably.

I am also coating a few parts to reduce friction, and to keep more heat in the combustion chamber and out of the cooling system. This will add a bit more efficiency and result in a touch more power.

Custom cams, and more involved porting would add a good bit more power, but the cost per hp starts rising substantially. This kind of defeats the reason I am doing this. I want to see what is possible with the stock parts when they are optimised to work together - as a system. And still keep the costs reasonable and the mods easily copied (or improved upon) by others in their garage or by having it done by a local shop.

Just because you have never done this before does not prevent you from doing it. There is only one way to learn. You can read and gain all the knowledge possible, but you need practical application to gain experience. I am no engine guru, but I may have experiences that others do not. If I can help, I will.

Triumph designed a great engine. Manufacturing costs and emissions regulations prevent them from making everything perfect. But that doesn't prevent us from picking up where Triumph left off.

I hope this helps.

I apologize for writing a "book", but I feel it was needed in order to explain what I did, and why. I realize that most of the forum members will not care about more performance from their Speed Triple, but those who do might find this informative.
 

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Devious2xs,
I love your common sence, systematic, one thing at a time approach to engine tuning using proven techniques. Your "books' make for interesting reading. Keep it up.
Fred
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
As long as there is interest, I will write when I can.

I have been looking at the 1050 head... and thinking. [The smell of burning gear oil is pretty strong]

The bowls (under the valve seats) need cleaning up, as do the areas around the injectors - way too sharp of an edge here. A bit of dimpling here will help break up the injector spray pattern - nothing big for power, but nice for throttle response.

The intake port opening is very crudely opened to match the adapter for the throttle body (from the factory). A better blend here may be very nice.

And the divider between the intake valves needs reshaping.

I am struggling to fight the urge to do a complete port job. It isn't easy. I might might not succeed. With the cams being so mild, a bit more port work than I had planned might be the answer.

I am also trying to decide IF I want to undercut the valve stems for a bit more flow. And then change the intake valve seat angle. And sink the valve seat for the exhaust valve. This combined with a bit of shaping on the combustion chamber side of the valve head can help prevent reversion back into the intake ports and intake mixture flowing directly into the open exhaust port during overlap - not that there is a lot of overlap with the stock cams.

I may need to order more sanding rolls.

Just thinking out loud - through my fingers.
 

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Bless you, young man and please continue. You're doing God's work.

(Provided God is a gear-head!) ;)
 

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Man I wish you had a Daytona motor; I think they must be built in a different engine shop!!!!!! It reminds me of a Cosworth motor, I played with them in the UK for a while ;D all the parts are engraved and personalised!!! You don’t see that on a Jap motor...... Then again a Jap motor will kill a Daytona motor hands down!!!!!????

Having said that you still get a miss match on the throttle bodies...

70’000 K motor still looks like new, got the grind marks on the cam shaft……
I do like Mobile 1. It’s good stuff, that’s what keeps your engine clean, I wish It could run on LPG gas. My Bronco oil was as clean as the day it was put in, crystal clear no black oil at all!!!!!

Deposits on the valve is a result of commuting not thrashing, the 1050 has next to nothing in overlap yet you still see some horrendous carbon build up on the commuter bikes that I service…… Thrash it and it’s clean as a whistle……

Both Me and Dale are in agreement that the Daytona is in a high state of tune in standard form. I can’t give you a heads up on the 1050 motor because I just can’t get to it at the moment, I only know that the Daytona motor is very strong and it would take a stroker kit!!!!! Cam the 1050 or swap the head and you will have a very nice motor using standard parts……………

It also spins me out that the 06 Daytona is a 1050 motor with a 955 crank and a decked block?????
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
It sounds like the Daytona engines are hand assembled - very nice. Lots of companies are going this route these days, the most impressive of which is Ford's SVT engine line.

You are right about the carbon and the cams. I am thinking about staying with the stock cams for the forced induction.


LPG - great stuff, no carbon, completely vaporized, and higher octane. But it can be hard on valve seats. It also works great on deisels! I have a 15 gallon tank on my F250 truck. I have another set of vaporizers around here somewhere, I wonder how a tank on a bike would...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
racecomp said:
It also spins me out that the 06 Daytona is a 1050 motor with a 955 crank and a decked block?????
OK, NOW I need details. How much is the block decked? Is it the same head (1050) with different cams?

It would make sense that it is the same head. The numbers I have for a Daytona head are very close to what I am seeing on the 1050, and what I expected based on the results I am getting on the dyno.

Up to now, I've been using the Daytona flow numbers in my software for the 1050 engine.

Daytona numbers I have at 10" of depression:
Lift 0.05 0.01 0.15 0.20 0.25 - 0.30 - 0.35 - 0.4 - 0.45 -0.50 -0.55 -0.60
Std 20.9 43.1 65.4 85.0 101.8 111.2 116.8 120.3 122.4 123.8 113.8 113.2
Prtd. 22.1 43 66.1 86.5 104.5 123.4 123.4 126.9 130.1 130.2 130.1 -----

This would give the 1050 (at .344 inch lift) around 115 cfm at 10 " and 192 at 28". This would allow for a max of 148 crank hp and somewhere around 130 rwhp on a Dynojet. Basic clean up porting SHOULD allow for 154-155 crank hp and 137 rwhp on a Dynojet. More involved porting will break 140 rwhp - or SHOULD.

With Daytona cams, lift increases to 0.400 inches. This means 120 cfm at 10" or 200.4 at 28" (multiply flow at 10" X 1.67 to get flow at 28").

This would mean potential for 154-155 crank hp (flow at 28" X .257 X number of cylinders) and 136-137 dynojet hp. With clean up porting, 127 cfm at 10" = 212 cfm at 28". And 163-164 crank hp (around 143-145 hp on a Dynojet).

With a few other trix, 150 hp is very possible.

For Dynojet numbers, I am simply using crank estimated power X 0.88, since this is close for what a stock 128 hp (rated) engine gets on a Dynojet (around 112-113 rwhp). Not perfect, but you get the idea.

On a Dynojet, if you change to a lighter chain and wheels, the rwhp numbers will go up. And if you change to a shorter sprocket gear, numbers will drop - very slightly.

More thinking out loud.


Scratch - How could God not be a gear-head? look at all the hotrodding he has done over the eons.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Premier,
I'm not really thinking about it right now, just comparing the two.
1 - I want to see what is possible with the stock parts first - it's cheap and easy.
2 - I am really leaning towards forced induction for later. This would make an easy 50% more power - killing anything I could gain by going with Daytona cams. AND the rpm stays lower with F/I.
 

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Devious2xs said:
Scratch - How could God not be a gear-head? look at all the hotrodding he has done over the eons.
You've got a point. God (or any deity of your choice) made the physical constants that govern all properties of matter and energy. It was up to us to discover those properties and start building hi-perf motors. ;)
 

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Devious2xs said:
racecomp said:
It also spins me out that the 06 Daytona is a 1050 motor with a 955 crank and a decked block?????
OK, NOW I need details. How much is the block decked? Is it the same head (1050) with different cams?

It would make sense that it is the same head. The numbers I have for a Daytona head are very close to what I am seeing on the 1050, and what I expected based on the results I am getting on the dyno.

Up to now, I've been using the Daytona flow numbers in my software for the 1050 engine.

Daytona numbers I have at 10" of depression:
Lift 0.05 0.01 0.15 0.20 0.25 - 0.30 - 0.35 - 0.4 - 0.45 -0.50 -0.55 -0.60
Std 20.9 43.1 65.4 85.0 101.8 111.2 116.8 120.3 122.4 123.8 113.8 113.2
Prtd. 22.1 43 66.1 86.5 104.5 123.4 123.4 126.9 130.1 130.2 130.1 -----

This would give the 1050 (at .344 inch lift) around 115 cfm at 10 " and 192 at 28". This would allow for a max of 148 crank hp and somewhere around 130 rwhp on a Dynojet. Basic clean up porting SHOULD allow for 154-155 crank hp and 137 rwhp on a Dynojet. More involved porting will break 140 rwhp - or SHOULD.

With Daytona cams, lift increases to 0.400 inches. This means 120 cfm at 10" or 200.4 at 28" (multiply flow at 10" X 1.67 to get flow at 28").

This would mean potential for 154-155 crank hp (flow at 28" X .257 X number of cylinders) and 136-137 dynojet hp. With clean up porting, 127 cfm at 10" = 212 cfm at 28". And 163-164 crank hp (around 143-145 hp on a Dynojet).

With a few other trix, 150 hp is very possible.

For Dynojet numbers, I am simply using crank estimated power X 0.88, since this is close for what a stock 128 hp (rated) engine gets on a Dynojet (around 112-113 rwhp). Not perfect, but you get the idea.

On a Dynojet, if you change to a lighter chain and wheels, the rwhp numbers will go up. And if you change to a shorter sprocket gear, numbers will drop - very slightly.

More thinking out loud.


Scratch - How could God not be a gear-head? look at all the hotrodding he has done over the eons.
:pow:

Can we look for an S3 tuning book by Devious in the future?

I stand in awe of your knowledge once again! :drink:
 

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::) Is forced induction like a supercharger?? HEH,HEH. oh boy, that ought to be fun, BUT i would like to put one on abike with a full fairing (like a Daytona?) for top end work. What about tHAT??
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Next thing you know, HiVel will be in NC at the Maxton speed runs.  :wave:


I have a tune I want you to try HiVel. WHEN MY CABLE GETS BACK IN TOWN. It seems to be on a nationwide tour right now.
 

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Woohoo. Just installed the jardine cans I got from AlaskaS3, downloaded the tune for them and took an all too brief test run (28 degrees F). Sounds great and seat of the pants says things are definitely better on the bottom end, I used to have to work to get a wheelie, test run says that will now be no problem at all!

I should get my header gaskets this week and then start header work and pre-cat dissection (spring break). May not get completed due to a lengthy list of appointments and such that I have to schedule during time off as well as some other projects that are a priority. But at least some of it will get done before it gets too nice outside to do it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Milq,
Great to hear about the exhaust and tune.

If you have header gaskets, a die grinder, and a few other tools ready when you remove the header, you can remove the cat and clean up the header in a single day - IF you can do the welding or have someone nearby do it.
 
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:pow: Great read devious. Like the fact that your doing mods anyone can do. I need to get the cash for a tune boy before I do any more mods. Think it could be running alot better now with my exhaust and BMC.
Looks like aussie bikes don't have the pre-cat in the header, I had a look last time my exhaust was off. Another job I don't have to do. I got all keen to remove the SAI a while back only to discover I don't have one.
 
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