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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi.
Finished the air box mod and the info and data will be on the web site.
Please give me a few days as I am a little behind.
Just a note. The Ducati S4 I tested (who's data is on the site DID have a slightly modified airbox).
I just did not see it.
So. The maps on the site should say. S4R , Arrow EX + PC + Air box modified from stock
The S3 was Wolf slip ons , Mapped with tune Boy.
Let's just say it took more mapping (The Air Box mod)than I thought. But it was worth it.
promise it will be up shortly.


Andy
 

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Andy,
I have a couple of questions.
1 - Are you positive that the airbox mod was the reason for the increase in power, and not the timing change?
2 - When you first ran the modified airbox on the dyno (before mapping changes), did you see a change in the CO and the NOx?

The reason I ask is that the second graph on you site shows a gain at 4000 rpm. This is not from the airbox flow. The stock "snorkles" flow more than enough air at 4000 rpm compared to what the engine wants. The gain at 4000 rpm looks more like a result of additional timing advance and improved mapping.

I could easily be wrong.

-Wayne
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I did not get a chance to put all the necessary infomation. I put that final graph on there because most would want to see a nice graph they can relate to. Testing was only done a 7,8,9 and 9200 rpms.
With the hole in the box the bike leaned out further as expected.And responded to an increase in injector duration, up went the power as you see from 7k up.
Since I had a result I wanted, 2.5 or so Hp. I continued to work on the 100% throttle map all the way from 4 k up.
Ignition modifications were only at 2 of these load points.
I hope I have answered your concerns. In short. I gained 2 to 3 hp. from 7k to 9.2k .
Power went up immediately with fuel modifications. They improved very slightly with ignition timing.
Just for your information. although the intakes are big enough to supply enough air for the engine at lower rpms, I believe this not to be true at full load at certain rpms, maybe a 4k maybe not at 6k. now with the throttle at 20% open the intakes are big enough at any rpm.
I believe there is a more important phenomenon. I believe the airbox now has the ability to replenish itself with fresh air faster. The snorkels point somewhat down to the engine. Pulling less air from just above the hot engine. The large hole. Although above the engine and behind the frame. (with our air intake fan blowing air past the front of the bike, Like you riding down the road) ((please don't confuse this with "ram air")) Can fill the airbox with a cooler cleaner air supply faster.
 

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http://www.metricmotorcycles.com/SpeedTriple.asp



I'm not convinced. I would rather have seen a full a/f corrected tune without the airbox mod contrasted to afterwards, with airbox mod and and a new full a/f corrected tune. It seems to me that too many mods were made to be sure just exactly what caused the increase.

I expect that Devi may be right: all the gains came from the ignition and a/f changes, and it's possible that even more could have been extracted without the hole in the box.

I'm always leery when someone states "We do this to all our bikes" when it's clear that not all bikes respond well to any specific modification.

Just my opinion you understand. Been wrong before. Today even.
 

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I have also turned the snorkels down away from the sai solenoid. Effect unknown. I am not very conserned about the hot air coming from the engine. There is such a hurricane of ambient air at speed that any insulation has very little effect.

Suzuki Bandit 1200 had a single snorkel of 35mm id diameter. Bandit 600 had 5mm larger. Very common mod was to remove the snorkel and make another 50mm hole next to it and K&N filter. The bike went very lean and needed main jets of around #130-140 while the stock was 102. Even with a change this dramatic the power only went up couple of hp on relatively stock engine. More effect with performance mods like cams, porting etc. Intake tuning like shape and volume of the airbox usually is more important than just reaming a helluva big hole.
 

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Early in my testing, I cut a hole in my airbox to test additional flow and then plenum volume changes. I found little additional benefit. Even when the power/torque has been increased by nearly 20%. That means nothing. Andy could easily have come across something that works.

As for heat, put a thermocouple in there and measure it - you might be surprised.
 

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Devious2xs said:
As for heat, put a thermocouple in there and measure it - you might be surprised.
Ok, back from testing.

Testing setup: One in/out digital household thermometer. I stuffed the out-sensor into the airbox via the intake snorkel and taped the display into handlebar.



The out sensor seems to read 0,7C higher than the in sensor

Rode some 60km on the road with varying speeds. Visited town but there was very little traffic.
Ambient temperature was 9,9-10,8C during the test. The summer should kick in by all means.



Picture taken just after accelerating to 100km/h from 80km/h. The car drivers must have wondered what I was doing while removing the glove and digging the phone from my pocket to take the picture.

The results:

Temperature differential corrected with the 0.7C error between the two sensors:

At 60km/h ~2-3C
At 80km/h ~1,5-2C
At 100km/h ~1-1,5
At 130km/h ~less than 1C

When sitting in traffic lights the temperature rose rapidly and dropped rapidly when on the move. My conclusion is that if the bike is moving, the heat shields do absolutely nothing. They can help if moving very slowly or sitting in traffic.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Ok.
My last words on the subject. I did not do this to convince anyone. If you don't believe the results.
DON'T DO IT TO YOUR BIKE.
It was a simple test. tested acuratly on a Ec997 Dynomometer. And tuning the bike for Maximum Horsepower.
 

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Oh come on ;D

These are all valid points here. They're not trying to put you down, just make sure the test results are valid. This should interest you too.
 

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premier said:
Oh come on ;D

These are all valid points here. They're not trying to put you down, just make sure the test results are valid. This should interest you too.
+1
 

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AndyMetric said:
Ok.
My last words on the subject. I did not do this to convince anyone. If you don't believe the results.
DON'T DO IT TO YOUR BIKE.
It was a simple test. tested acuratly on a Ec997 Dynomometer. And tuning the bike for Maximum Horsepower.
i know how you feel you are just trying to post info to help. And it does SEEM like people are getting a little negative i think they are just trying to make sure that the correct info is written. however i do thank you and i'm sure every one else here thanks you for your posts and hope to see more in the future.
 

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Please don't take constructive criticism the wrong way. I'm not happy with your methodology, but we're always grateful for peoples work. I'm also not questioning your dyno numbers, just what caused them.

It's well known that Ducatis respond well to airbox mods, and so do Triumph Thunderbird Sports and many other bikes. However most of Triumph's Sport bike line benefit little, if at all. If you want to show me that the airbox mod made all the difference, you need to break it out as the only mod that could have made the difference. Preferably like so:

Run 1) completely stock bike: no mods or tuning. Baseline.

Run 2) completely stock bike: tuned for max horsepower and proper a/f ratio. Modified baseline.

Run 3) stock bike with modified airbox: modified tune for completely stock bike. First Test.

Run 4) stock bike with modified airbox: retuned for modified airbox. Final test.

Comparing it to a Ducati is interesting but not relevant. Tuning it to the mods that you already made up your mind to do only tells us what the final number is, not what caused it.
 

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Here is a better question. What difference would a completely open airbox make compared to stock? My father put individual air filters directly on his intakes on his Rocket III and after tuning saw a fat increase in HP and tq. He could definitely feel the difference on the road.

I've read quite a bit on T595.net about various airbox mods, but none of them were professional tuners with the extensive kind of shop Andy has.

Sorry Andy, I guess to satisfy the pure empiricists on the board you'll have to do something like Crashmasterd's Run list, lol. Otherwise, keep experimenting. I'm having serious thoughts about sending my bike back to you for that big bore kit if I can find a 955i daytona motor...
 

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Andy - personally, I love having your outlook on this board - especially if your results are different than mine. I love seeing a different perspective.
No one has done anything but asked a couple of questions. Why take this personally? Should we take ANYONE'S testing as completely empirical and show blind faith in every bit of data simply because it shows a dyno graph? And never ask questions? Lighten up and help us to understand. :)

You said yourself that cutting the hole did little, but required tuning. So without asking questions, one would have to bring their bike to your shop and have you perform the mapping. For many of us on the board, that is not realistic - especially for those outside the US. So we are asking for more information to help us understand.

If you have found a cheap performance increase that requires mapping changes, we are all interested to understand how we can make use of this. :pow:

Kuhlka - An airbox serves as a plenum. It needs to be sized for the engine displacement, the rpm used, and the tuning of the intake lengths in relation to cam events. If the stock plenum volume is incorrect - like the overly small one on the R3 (and many V-twins), removing it can help dramatically.

HarriS - Good work! Different than my results, but my testing was done at around 31* C and high humidity. I wonder how much this changes the results?
 

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Where did you measure it? My sensor was inside the airbox so it read actual intake air. I think that the air flow and supply of ambient air even at those modest speeds is so hard it blows any heated air away and the proximity of the hot engine does not matter. The radiator is also below the air intake so very little of the air through the radiator actually is sucked into the airbox at speed. I expected slightly bigger difference like 5-10 degrees.
 
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