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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

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OK, good info....but, the GO PACKERS at the bottom of the page..................This guy obviously doesn't know sh!t....... :shocker:
 

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That guy seems to have put a lot of effort into things, noticed he even gets into preferred oil filters as well. I just don't have the energy to read it personally.
 

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Good site, but like all things, don't take it all as gospel.

"It's simply not the case that synthetic oils are more "slippery" than conventional oils."

This can be proven otherwise.

The many Falex tests are good indicators of how slippery an oil is, how well it protects, and at what pressure it breaks down.
 

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Synthetics are just used in high performance motors and clutches not because they are slippery but because they prevent more deposits due to more homogeneous structure of the oil molecules...not because they are more slippery correct?? As well as their resistance to higher temps??
 

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I am no petrochemical engineer, but this is the best of my understanding.

Synthetics (today) are more stable at higher temps and can be better produced to protect against the forces in an engine. But 'Synthetics' is a broad term - as is the the term 'Mineral'.

There are 3 base types of synthetic stocks - PAO, Di-ester, and polyester. Mineral oils us a mineral base, synthetic blends use a mineral base as well. They all differ in the additive packages used in the base.

The best indicator of wear and protection I know of, is the Falex 'pin and block' test and the '4 ball wear' tests. You can generally find these results on the web for many oils.

For me, there are two basic ways to determine if one oil is more 'slippery' than another.
1- Dyno testing and track testing. An oil that is more slippery should produce more power and improve times on the track due to the reduced friction robbing less power from the engine and drivetrain.
2- Coast down testing. On a flat piece of road or track, an oil that is more slippery will allow a vehicle to coast farther when compression braking or when the clutch is held in.

I use an a very accurate accelerometer for both tests.

I regularly see results for synthetic oils that indicate that the better ones are significantly more slippery than mineral oils, that they protect better, and last longer.

One side note, synthetic additive packages tend to use very large molecular chains. There are some aftermarket oil filters that filter too well, and can remove the additives from the oils - not a good thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Devi,

Am I right in assuming that refined oils are primarily distilled, filtered and 'cracked' from crude, and that synthetic oils are primarily built up, or 'synthesized' from a base stock, usually an ester?

I had been told that synthetics are more stable than refined oils because the range of compounds that make up the oil can be more precisely controlled. More consistent chemical makeup means more predictable wear, temperature, viscosity, and lubricating properties.

Also, would you agree with the author that 'energy conserving' oils should not be used in wet clutch machines?
 

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As far as I know, yes on all counts.

But there are still a few PAO based synthetics on the market - Mobile 1 only changed to a di-ester a few years ago. It really isn't the base that determines any oil, but the additive package that is used.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
As long as we're getting technical, the only drawback I've read in PAO (Polyalphaolefins)-based oil is the resistance to mix with some additives. Companies like Exxon-Mobil have developed synthetics using both PAO and di-ester bases to develop a synthetic that combines the best of both types - extended drain-down characteristics of PAO and mixability of esters. ;D
 

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BillT said:
As long as we're getting technical, the only drawback I've read in PAO (Polyalphaolefins)-based oil is the resistance to mix with some additives. Companies like Exxon-Mobil have developed synthetics using both PAO and di-ester bases to develop a synthetic that combines the best of both types - extended drain-down characteristics of PAO and mixability of esters. ;D
Very true.
On additive packages for many oils, the cost to produce some additives keeps them from being used in many mass produced oils. For this reason, some smaller oil companies are able to bring oils to market with superior properties than other oils.

Perhaps some with more in depth knowledge can post up here. My information is based on talks with a few petrochemical engineers and my experiences - and by no means should be considered comprehensive.
 

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Note that the courts ruled that SYNTHETIC is a marketing term and not a technical term. Castrol brought this to a head when they introduced Syntec (which isn't synthetic in my book) and Mobil sued them. I totally disagree with that ruling but I don't make the laws. The Group III oils used in Syntec and it's ilk are much cheaper than the true synthetics so most of the industry (including most Mobil 1 formulations) has followed suit. If you can't beat them join them.

From the first link:

In the late 1990s, Castrol started selling an oil made from Group III base oil and called it SynTec Full Synthetic. Mobil sued Castrol, asserting that this oil was not synthetic, but simply a highly refined petroleum oil, and therefore it was false advertising to call it synthetic. In 1999, Mobil lost their lawsuit. It was decided that the word "synthetic" was a marketing term and referred to properties, not to production methods or ingredients. Castrol continues to make SynTec out of Group III base oils, that is highly purified mineral oil with most all of the cockroach bits removed.

Shortly after Mobil lost their lawsuit, most oil companies started reformulating their synthetic oils to use Group III base stocks instead of PAOs or diester stocks as their primary component. Most of the "synthetic oil" you can buy today is actually mostly made of this highly-distilled and purified dino-juice called Group III oil. Group III base oils cost about half as much as the synthetics. By using a blend of mostly Group III oils and a smaller amount of "true" synthetics, the oil companies can produce a product that has nearly the same properties as the "true" synthetics, and nearly the same cost as the Group III oil. The much more expensive traditional synthetics are now available in their pure forms only in more expensive and harder to obtain oils. To the best of my knowledge, Delvac-1, AMSOil, Redline, and Motul 5100 are the only oils made from pure traditional synthetics.


FWIW, I use the Amsoil AMF 10W-40 & PureOne PL14612 filter.
 

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Doc,
There are a few others that use pure synthetics.
the Amsoil AMF oil is a great oil, I have seen some very good results with it. I prefer another pure synthetic that I have mentioned several times.

What are you paying for the AMF?
 

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I've been very happy with Amsoil. I run it in all my rigs now. It make my sport quad shift much better and When I replaced all the fluids in my wife's little Ford Escape, , it consistantly got 1.5 MPG better with no other changes. I did not notice any changes in the S3, but I put that in on the first oil change.
 

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Devious2xs said:
Doc,
There are a few others that use pure synthetics.
the Amsoil AMF oil is a great oil, I have seen some very good results with it. I prefer another pure synthetic that I have mentioned several times.

What are you paying for the AMF?

What is it that you run?
 

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wanted to ask before i do it

i have ran syn thetics in every car/ motorcycle ive owned i have two brand REDLINE AND ROYAL PURPLE will these be ok to put in the speed triple (first time ive owned a bike past 1992 model year)
 

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Have you ever tested Royal Purple after 1000 miles?

It is slick stuff when new, but doesn't hold up IMHO.

You can try it in the bike. But I would suggest sending a sample out for analysis at your first oil change.
 

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What is wrong with the manual recommended Mobil Racing 4T 10W40 or 15W50 available at most local Esso/Exxon stations?

Both work for me. 10W40 lubes a bit better on startups and 15W50 makes the S3 run a bit quieter. Recently been running the latter as my speedy never sees extremely low temps.

I don't see the reason to experiment with other brands as there are already two factory recommended choices that work well running & gearboxwise.
???
 

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Martin_R, I think one of the big reasons folks are asking these questions is the cost of the Triumph branded Racing 4T. Even a diy oil change sets you back nearly $70 when using their oil. That was the main reason I got into the discussion on various threads.
I went so far as to buy a bottle of it as well as a bottle of the Mobil 1 15W50 from a local store and pay $45 to have them both analyzed just to see how much difference there really is (the stuff from my local store is less than half the price). You can find the results of the analysis here: http://www.thespeedtriple.com/Forums/index.php?;tpstart=5
about the middle of the page.

I just have a hard time swallowing $53 a gallon for an oil that may or may not be worth that much. Myself, I doubt that I'll be paying that much for a second bottle of the stuff based on the analysis....but bikes are personal property and, as such, subject to personal opinion.
 
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